Hey everyone, this is directly taken from a post I made on the /r/killingfloor subreddit, found here http://ift.tt/1hU4hT3. Feel free to leave comments either hither or thither, I'll try to respond back to any questions or comments quickly. Thanks!
Hey everyone. So it's pretty much a general consensus that the M4 is absolutely useless in KF2 (currently), from what I've heard and experienced for myself maining Support. Eviscerator-level useless, even, but at least the Eviscerator is getting looked at. But there shouldn't be such a thing as a useless weapon, right? I think the M4 needs a fix; that, or it needs to be tossed out and replaced with a more sensible alternative. As a disclaimer (if needed), I'm no expert here; I play Hard most of the time and haven't even maxed out my level 20 Support, so if anything you all see here doesn't add up, let me know, or throw in a more experienced opinion. Oh, and the stats I got from this.
So it seems like TW intended the M4 to be an improvement on the 500 (starting scattergat), something to replace it with later on rather than a niche-type shotgun like the Boomstick (high damage one-shot-one-kill) or AA-12 (automatic, maximum volume of fire) are. The 500 and M4 are both in-the-middle in a sense, with average capacity, average fire-rates, and average damage output. I like the idea of the M4 being a late-game replacer for the 500, but TW went about it the wrong way (but hopefully, given that this isn't the final product at all, TW can easily change the M4 and make it more viable. Hopefully); as such, my suggestions are oriented towards keeping the M4's role as a beefed-up SG500.
So what does the M4 have going for it? It's semi-auto, mainly. No pesky pump time to slow you down ("Look at me, with the trigger finger!"). And it has a little bit more damage per pellet, 25 dam times 7 pellets (25x7) compared to the SG500's 20x7 damage output. Oh, and you get two more shells, 42 compared to 40 with the SG in full reserve (without the Ammo perk in Tier 1). And it looks sexy as hell, doesn't it?
But looks aren't enough to save this iteration of the Benelli M4, the glorious M4 Super 90, the almighty M1014, from it's bad stats in KF2. It has a weight of 8 compared to the 5 wt. of the 500. It has 6 rounds of ammunition when fully loaded compared to the 8 of the 500. It has the same reload time(s), both with and without the Tactical Reload skill, as the 500. It has less stumble power, 15 compared to the 500's power of 20. The M4 has higher hip-fire recoil, with a multiplier of 1.5 compared to the 1.25 multiplier of the SG500. You can't even bash as quickly with the M4: the 500 can bash (V key) 55 times in one minute, while the M4 can bash only 49 times in one minute (that's 6 clots that haven't had their heads caved in!). My poor, precious M4, what has TW done to you? Show me where they nerfed you on the doll.
Here are my suggestions to balance out the M4 a bit better. I'm hoping this would translate pretty well into higher difficulties, but the meta sounds weird as ****, so help me out if you're a HoE nerd.
Damage No change. 25x7 seems to work pretty well, actually; it's the damage of the AA-12 (only the AA unleashes that 25x7 a helluva lot faster), but isn't Boomstick-level destruction. However, it's still a step up from the 20x7 of the 500. The M4 is alright, here.
Ammo Let's start with magazine capacity (tube capacity? shell count? clipazines?). Now, I noticed something with the SG500. Based on the distance of the pump from the end of the shell tube, I'll go out on a limb and say that the SG500 in-game is based on an actual 6-shot model Mossberg 500 - keep in mind, "6-shot" refers to 5 shells in the tube and one in the chamber, so it's a "5+1 shot" or "6-shot". Meanwhile, the M4 appears to have a 7 (it may be the 8, but 7 would allow for a clean 8 rounds on a full magazine/chamber) shot tube, so it ought to hold 7+1, or 8 total rounds. Seems a bit flipped between the two, right? The 500's tube is too short to hold 7+1 rounds, and the M4 model's tube is too long for a meager 5+1. An obvious fix, here.
Increase the M4 magazine capacity to 8 total (fully loaded, 7 in the tube, 1 in the chamber). However, also decrease the magazine capacity of the SG500 to 6 (5+1 fully loaded). This would not only give the M4 a well-needed buff (two shots is more than one would think), but also help make the SG500 feel more like the starting weapon that it is and should be. As it stands, the SG remains quite viable into later rounds, mostly for killing everything except Scrakes and Fleshpounds. The M4 having those extra rounds would make it look mighty appealing as more and more trash starts appearing in later waves.
Now, not just mag capacity, but overall ammo as well. If the 500 were to be switched to a 6 round capacity, increasing the ammo count from 40 to 42 would be a good solution. One retains a similar amount of ammunition, but can now fully reload (weapon is completely empty, to completely full) a total of 7 times. To keep the ammo count "clean", i.e. a multiple of the mag capacity, the M4 can either go down to 40 with an 8 round capacity (5 full reloads), or can go up. I think the max ammo supply should be set at 48, allowing for 6 full reloads, and granting a few more rounds to the M4 than to the 500, giving the M4 more incentive to be purchased in later rounds, but not giving it an absurd amount of ammunition. 56 rounds max ammo, tops, but that's for TW to decide.
Weight This is an interesting one, and my suggestions are, again, just suggestions. Perhaps you all, or TW, can find a better way to balance this issue, but the M4's weight is definitely off-putting. Interestingly, TW has stuck pretty close to real-world weights, if you assume the weight system is Standard pounds (lbs.); the Mossberg 500 weighs about 5 lbs., the M4 weighs about 8, the AA-12 weighs about 10 lbs, etc.
But this is a game where we kill hordes of manic clones with various melee weapons sewn to their limbs. I appreciate the desire for realism, but balance is more important in a game that is definitely not a simulator.
I propose the M4's weight be lowered to 5. I'm choosing 5, here, in an attempt to think setup-wise. Without the wt. increasing perk (so 15 total carrying capacity), this would allow a support to have an AA-12 (10 wt.) and an M4 (5 wt.) with nothing else in late-game. This is a compromise in my eyes, as my typical loadouts always have a medic pistol, at 1 wt. Having an M4 wouldn't allow that, so it becomes more of a "do you want two very viable shotgats (AA/M4), or the ever-important medigat (medipistol, Boomstick, AA)?". With the weight-increasing skill, the M4 becomes a great replacer for the SG500, as you can run a loadout of AA/M4/Boomstick/Medipistol (10/5/4/1) for a total of 20 wt.
Okay, but now the beefy, has-a-gas-system-and-an-actual-stock M4 is the same weight as the SG500, a pistol-gripped pumpgun! While lowering the M4 weight to 5, also lower the weight of the SG500 to 4. This doesn't allow for any more loadout combinations with the SG than it already has, but might open up a cross-class loadout or two, I'm not sure. In any case, now this also allows players to choose: Boomstick or SG500. The SG now weighs the same as the Boomstick, so it can fit anywhere the Boomstick does, allowing loadouts such as AA/SG/medipistol for 15 wt. or AA/M4/SG/medipistol for 20 wt.
Reload Same as damage, no change. You'll be throwing two extra shells in there, but at the same rate you do for the current SG500. Tac reload gives you the superhuman ability to hold infinite shells in your hand and insert them with android-esque dexterity (so, no change from the current).
Cost I'm going to go with no change on this one. If it were to receive the buffs it needs, the M4 would be worth 1100 pretty easily. A flat 1000 dosh might be better, but as it stands it seems like lods of emone is pretty easy to come by, especially with zerkers hanging around.
Misc. This section covers stumble, recoil, and bash. Here, I'm mostly just confused looking at the stats. Seriously, does someone at TWI just hate Benelli? The M4's stumble is currently 15, compared to 20 for the SG500, 100 for the Boomstick, and 30 for the AA. So, the Boomstick needs its stumble - that's what the boomstick does, it goes boom, big damage, small ammo. The AA is the endgame, so 30 stumble seems fair. But the M4 stumbles less than the starter gun? I understand not wanting it to stumble more, it's not supposed to compete with the AA, but less? Suggested fix is to equate the M4's stumble to the 500's, at 20 stumble.
Same thing with the recoil. Why in the absolute hell is any modicum of the M4's recoil worse than the 500's? Assuming they're both firing the same ammunition, along the lines of 2.75" 00 buckshot, the M4 would likely have less recoil given its gas system. But like I said, obviously realism isn't the name of the game: Killing Floor is. Equate the M4's hip fire recoil to the SG500's, both at a 1.25x multiplier for hip fire recoil.
Seriously, did the M1014 touch a dev as a child? Killed a beloved pet? What happened, here? Bash shouldn't be as quick as the 500, because muh pistol grip, but it shouldn't be slower than the damn AA-12's bash - the AA-12 is 3+ lbs heavier, it would be harder to swing. In any case, suggestion here is to increase the bashes-per-minute (bash rate of fire) to 50, equivalent to the AA-12, and giving us one more bash per minute (yes, goddammit, this is important).
To summarize:
Damage: no change
Ammo: Increase M4 shell capacity to 8, reduce SG500 capacity to 6. Increase M4 reserve ammo to between 48-56 shells, increase SG500 capacity to 42.
Weight: Decrease M4 weight to 5 wt. Decrease SG500 weight to 4 wt.
Reload: no change
Cost: no change
Misc: Increase stumble factor of M4 to 20. Lower M4 hip fire recoil multiplier to 1.25x. Increase bash rate-of-fire to 50 bashes per minute.
Overall, I think that could bring the M4 back from the dead. Of course, we all think our own thoughts are great; so I want to know what you think. What else could be improved, what else needs fixing, are these buffs too strong, not strong enough?
Thanks for reading; hopefully we can work together to save the life of this poor, neglected beauty of nature, the M4 Combat Shotgun.
Hey everyone. So it's pretty much a general consensus that the M4 is absolutely useless in KF2 (currently), from what I've heard and experienced for myself maining Support. Eviscerator-level useless, even, but at least the Eviscerator is getting looked at. But there shouldn't be such a thing as a useless weapon, right? I think the M4 needs a fix; that, or it needs to be tossed out and replaced with a more sensible alternative. As a disclaimer (if needed), I'm no expert here; I play Hard most of the time and haven't even maxed out my level 20 Support, so if anything you all see here doesn't add up, let me know, or throw in a more experienced opinion. Oh, and the stats I got from this.
So it seems like TW intended the M4 to be an improvement on the 500 (starting scattergat), something to replace it with later on rather than a niche-type shotgun like the Boomstick (high damage one-shot-one-kill) or AA-12 (automatic, maximum volume of fire) are. The 500 and M4 are both in-the-middle in a sense, with average capacity, average fire-rates, and average damage output. I like the idea of the M4 being a late-game replacer for the 500, but TW went about it the wrong way (but hopefully, given that this isn't the final product at all, TW can easily change the M4 and make it more viable. Hopefully); as such, my suggestions are oriented towards keeping the M4's role as a beefed-up SG500.
So what does the M4 have going for it? It's semi-auto, mainly. No pesky pump time to slow you down ("Look at me, with the trigger finger!"). And it has a little bit more damage per pellet, 25 dam times 7 pellets (25x7) compared to the SG500's 20x7 damage output. Oh, and you get two more shells, 42 compared to 40 with the SG in full reserve (without the Ammo perk in Tier 1). And it looks sexy as hell, doesn't it?
But looks aren't enough to save this iteration of the Benelli M4, the glorious M4 Super 90, the almighty M1014, from it's bad stats in KF2. It has a weight of 8 compared to the 5 wt. of the 500. It has 6 rounds of ammunition when fully loaded compared to the 8 of the 500. It has the same reload time(s), both with and without the Tactical Reload skill, as the 500. It has less stumble power, 15 compared to the 500's power of 20. The M4 has higher hip-fire recoil, with a multiplier of 1.5 compared to the 1.25 multiplier of the SG500. You can't even bash as quickly with the M4: the 500 can bash (V key) 55 times in one minute, while the M4 can bash only 49 times in one minute (that's 6 clots that haven't had their heads caved in!). My poor, precious M4, what has TW done to you? Show me where they nerfed you on the doll.
Here are my suggestions to balance out the M4 a bit better. I'm hoping this would translate pretty well into higher difficulties, but the meta sounds weird as ****, so help me out if you're a HoE nerd.
Damage No change. 25x7 seems to work pretty well, actually; it's the damage of the AA-12 (only the AA unleashes that 25x7 a helluva lot faster), but isn't Boomstick-level destruction. However, it's still a step up from the 20x7 of the 500. The M4 is alright, here.
Ammo Let's start with magazine capacity (tube capacity? shell count? clipazines?). Now, I noticed something with the SG500. Based on the distance of the pump from the end of the shell tube, I'll go out on a limb and say that the SG500 in-game is based on an actual 6-shot model Mossberg 500 - keep in mind, "6-shot" refers to 5 shells in the tube and one in the chamber, so it's a "5+1 shot" or "6-shot". Meanwhile, the M4 appears to have a 7 (it may be the 8, but 7 would allow for a clean 8 rounds on a full magazine/chamber) shot tube, so it ought to hold 7+1, or 8 total rounds. Seems a bit flipped between the two, right? The 500's tube is too short to hold 7+1 rounds, and the M4 model's tube is too long for a meager 5+1. An obvious fix, here.
Increase the M4 magazine capacity to 8 total (fully loaded, 7 in the tube, 1 in the chamber). However, also decrease the magazine capacity of the SG500 to 6 (5+1 fully loaded). This would not only give the M4 a well-needed buff (two shots is more than one would think), but also help make the SG500 feel more like the starting weapon that it is and should be. As it stands, the SG remains quite viable into later rounds, mostly for killing everything except Scrakes and Fleshpounds. The M4 having those extra rounds would make it look mighty appealing as more and more trash starts appearing in later waves.
Now, not just mag capacity, but overall ammo as well. If the 500 were to be switched to a 6 round capacity, increasing the ammo count from 40 to 42 would be a good solution. One retains a similar amount of ammunition, but can now fully reload (weapon is completely empty, to completely full) a total of 7 times. To keep the ammo count "clean", i.e. a multiple of the mag capacity, the M4 can either go down to 40 with an 8 round capacity (5 full reloads), or can go up. I think the max ammo supply should be set at 48, allowing for 6 full reloads, and granting a few more rounds to the M4 than to the 500, giving the M4 more incentive to be purchased in later rounds, but not giving it an absurd amount of ammunition. 56 rounds max ammo, tops, but that's for TW to decide.
Weight This is an interesting one, and my suggestions are, again, just suggestions. Perhaps you all, or TW, can find a better way to balance this issue, but the M4's weight is definitely off-putting. Interestingly, TW has stuck pretty close to real-world weights, if you assume the weight system is Standard pounds (lbs.); the Mossberg 500 weighs about 5 lbs., the M4 weighs about 8, the AA-12 weighs about 10 lbs, etc.
But this is a game where we kill hordes of manic clones with various melee weapons sewn to their limbs. I appreciate the desire for realism, but balance is more important in a game that is definitely not a simulator.
I propose the M4's weight be lowered to 5. I'm choosing 5, here, in an attempt to think setup-wise. Without the wt. increasing perk (so 15 total carrying capacity), this would allow a support to have an AA-12 (10 wt.) and an M4 (5 wt.) with nothing else in late-game. This is a compromise in my eyes, as my typical loadouts always have a medic pistol, at 1 wt. Having an M4 wouldn't allow that, so it becomes more of a "do you want two very viable shotgats (AA/M4), or the ever-important medigat (medipistol, Boomstick, AA)?". With the weight-increasing skill, the M4 becomes a great replacer for the SG500, as you can run a loadout of AA/M4/Boomstick/Medipistol (10/5/4/1) for a total of 20 wt.
Okay, but now the beefy, has-a-gas-system-and-an-actual-stock M4 is the same weight as the SG500, a pistol-gripped pumpgun! While lowering the M4 weight to 5, also lower the weight of the SG500 to 4. This doesn't allow for any more loadout combinations with the SG than it already has, but might open up a cross-class loadout or two, I'm not sure. In any case, now this also allows players to choose: Boomstick or SG500. The SG now weighs the same as the Boomstick, so it can fit anywhere the Boomstick does, allowing loadouts such as AA/SG/medipistol for 15 wt. or AA/M4/SG/medipistol for 20 wt.
Reload Same as damage, no change. You'll be throwing two extra shells in there, but at the same rate you do for the current SG500. Tac reload gives you the superhuman ability to hold infinite shells in your hand and insert them with android-esque dexterity (so, no change from the current).
Cost I'm going to go with no change on this one. If it were to receive the buffs it needs, the M4 would be worth 1100 pretty easily. A flat 1000 dosh might be better, but as it stands it seems like lods of emone is pretty easy to come by, especially with zerkers hanging around.
Misc. This section covers stumble, recoil, and bash. Here, I'm mostly just confused looking at the stats. Seriously, does someone at TWI just hate Benelli? The M4's stumble is currently 15, compared to 20 for the SG500, 100 for the Boomstick, and 30 for the AA. So, the Boomstick needs its stumble - that's what the boomstick does, it goes boom, big damage, small ammo. The AA is the endgame, so 30 stumble seems fair. But the M4 stumbles less than the starter gun? I understand not wanting it to stumble more, it's not supposed to compete with the AA, but less? Suggested fix is to equate the M4's stumble to the 500's, at 20 stumble.
Same thing with the recoil. Why in the absolute hell is any modicum of the M4's recoil worse than the 500's? Assuming they're both firing the same ammunition, along the lines of 2.75" 00 buckshot, the M4 would likely have less recoil given its gas system. But like I said, obviously realism isn't the name of the game: Killing Floor is. Equate the M4's hip fire recoil to the SG500's, both at a 1.25x multiplier for hip fire recoil.
Seriously, did the M1014 touch a dev as a child? Killed a beloved pet? What happened, here? Bash shouldn't be as quick as the 500, because muh pistol grip, but it shouldn't be slower than the damn AA-12's bash - the AA-12 is 3+ lbs heavier, it would be harder to swing. In any case, suggestion here is to increase the bashes-per-minute (bash rate of fire) to 50, equivalent to the AA-12, and giving us one more bash per minute (yes, goddammit, this is important).
To summarize:
Damage: no change
Ammo: Increase M4 shell capacity to 8, reduce SG500 capacity to 6. Increase M4 reserve ammo to between 48-56 shells, increase SG500 capacity to 42.
Weight: Decrease M4 weight to 5 wt. Decrease SG500 weight to 4 wt.
Reload: no change
Cost: no change
Misc: Increase stumble factor of M4 to 20. Lower M4 hip fire recoil multiplier to 1.25x. Increase bash rate-of-fire to 50 bashes per minute.
Overall, I think that could bring the M4 back from the dead. Of course, we all think our own thoughts are great; so I want to know what you think. What else could be improved, what else needs fixing, are these buffs too strong, not strong enough?
Thanks for reading; hopefully we can work together to save the life of this poor, neglected beauty of nature, the M4 Combat Shotgun.
Fixing the M4 Combat Shotgun
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